I just did a weekend at the track and suffered some pretty serious brake fade. When I left the track on the first day I had to slam on the brakes to get the car to stop. They were very soft again the next morning but improved before falling off again.

The pads, rotors and fluid were all just changed out in November by the previous owner, about 4,000 miles ago. Everything is in good shape, but inadequate for the beating I'm giving the brakes. Because the rotors are newer do you think just replacing the pads and fluid will be enough?

I daily drive the car and do a handful of track days a year. I'm not looking for a full track brake set up, but something just more aggressive. I've used the Axxis metal masters in the past and like that pad.

 

Trying to find a pad that will work well both on the street and the track is the holy grail of track day drivers.

Here is a link to some really great info on pads and brakes.
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c...ds/post/Bed-in

 

What you want on the track is very different from the street. I have not found anything that does dual duty well.

 

Seven months is enough time for the existing fluid to accumulate moisture. Flush the old fluid and use a new fluid with high dry and wet boiling points.

 

Saw this set up for sale: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-kit-deal.html

 

I was wrong, the fluid is old. The only thing changed in November was the pads. I definitely want to flush the fluid and change out the pads and rotors. I really don't want to swap pads before events. I'm not mechanically inclined and I don't feel comfortable with that obligation.

I think what I really need is a more aggressive street pad with redline or another high temp fluid and maybe stainless steel lines. I think that sort of setup would be my best bet based on my needs. Just need to figure out what that pad/rotor is for that set up. Who makes the OEM rotors? I always used OEM rotors on my BMWs because they were Brembos and Zimmermans. Do these companies make rotors for MINIs?

Thanks Raven but that's way more super serious then I need to be :D

 

I would recommend that you go with milder track pads and live with the noise and brake dust. When you are going 125 mph down a straight going into a slow turn, you would want a little insurance with better higher heat track pads. Perhaps a Carbotech XP8 would work.

Of course get your fluids changed. I use either Motul or ATE Typ200 which are both good. You should change it every 6 months if you track the car.

 

I'd say def. go with the Motul Brake fluid and some of our stainless steel brake lines.
Then for brake pads that is a big can of worms cause a real dual use pad doesn't exist. Either it will be a good street pad and a bad track pad, or be a good track pad and a noisey hard street pad. You just have to pick what you rather.

Yes Zimmerman makes MINI rotors, we use them on most brake jobs that come in the shop, they are great and last a long time.
http://www.waymotorworks.com/zimmerm...s-r50-r53.html

 

Well, I've successfully destroyed the OEM brake components on the front part of the car.

I replaced the fluid with Ate super blue before my next track day. I had a mechanic do it because I didn't have time-- he somehow didn't notice that my 7-month-old front pads took a pretty big beating at Buttonwillow, changed the fluid and told me he was "confident" the car would do well at Willow Springs.

And it did damn well at Willow Springs until I put my foot to the brake going into turn 9 and the car barely slowed. I kept it on track-don't worry Pulled it off and took a look at the damage.

Driver's side front pad completely gone- metal on metal. Caliper is also sticking.

Passanger's side front pad nearly gone

Back ok, but the place that replaced them did a really halfassed job. They didn't use anti-seize and a few other things aren't quite right. I'm not chancing it and am replacing all four.

Just because of the short time frame I'm replacing them with:

Brembo blanks and PBR metal masters in the front
Zimmerman blanks and Mintex redbox in the backs

I'm not stoked about the redboxes and I would prefer slotted but this is what I can get before Saturday. I knew that the brakes wouldn't last long with back-to-back track days, but the front pads were practically brand new, I didn't expect them to give up half way through day 3 and only after about 300 miles of track driving.

The car isn't going to be on track again until September or October, at that time I'll see how they do and re-consider having separate track and street pads. I'll also get steel lines before that time. The new fluid definitely helped, but the pedal went soft before the pad denigrated. It's tough to tell if that was the fluid or the pad though because of everything that was going on with my brakes.

 

I would suggest you get a more track oriented front pad at least, if you went thru the oem's so quick.

 

Been there, done that.

I'd STRONGLY recommend getting a brake kit that can handle the track, if you're going to drive aggressively on the track. As an added bonus, brake pad changes are a breeze.

I've come to the opinion that the track is an inherently dangerous place, and the stakes are just too high to compromise on brakes. I've gone with Way's brake ducts (haven't been on the track since I put them in, but I can't wait), a dedicated big brake kit, track pads for the track, and street pads for the street. I've tried every other combination, and wasted a TON of money in the process, when I should have listened to what others were saying and spent the extra dough up front, saved money in the long run, and had a safe and effective track setup that can also run on the street.

Consider yourself lucky. You might not be next time; I had a similar experience at Road America three years ago, except I went off the track with absolutely no brakes at a very high speed, but fortunately had car going in a straight line and the wheels pointing straight (and away from the barrier) when I hit the grass. I had no warning--the OEM (and these were JCW's) just went.

A couple of years ago at Gingerman a similar incident happened with a MINI--only this one wasn't as fortunate, and clipped the wall.

The other option is to tone it down on the track, but what fun is that?

 

It's the heat that will destroy a street/dual use pad on most tracks, especially Willow Springs. I want to know how you even passed a tech inspection with almost no material left?

I would switch out your PBRs to a track-pad. Those will not withstand the heat that will buildup in your brakes and you'll end up having to buy another set of street pads and track pads later on.

How many trackdays/HPDE events do you do a year? This will dictate what brake upgrades you might want to follow.

I wouldn't be too worried about the rears, I use Hawk HP pads at the rear and they barely do much of the braking anyways.

 

Yeah I want to know how I passed tech too. My mechanic said nothing about the pads or rotors and I saw him the day before Willow Springs. Moral of the story: never trust someone else's opinion on something as important as brakes.

The reason why I'm so hesitant to just get a second set of pads is because that isn't something I've ever had to do with my other cars. I'd take them to the track, drive them home and just have to replace them a little bit more often than average-- but now I need dedicated pads? I typically only do a handful of events a year. The car likely won't be on the track again until September, I have a while to decide if I want to get a set of track pads.

 

CC do yourself a favor, get a BBK from Way or TSW, go with dedicated pads.

You could run a moderate race pad in the back for street or track and only change out the fronts for track days.

You will be a happier track day MINI driver.

Don

 

CC – I am going though the same brake dilemma. There are some great BBKs out there, but for $1000+ it is a big expense for a few track days. After a day at Moticello, NY (3.5 mi, 20+ turns) I was not happy with my brakes but from my research and everyone I talk to who tracks their Minis, it is the pads more than anything else. I had Hawk HPS pads figuring they could take the punishment. While they never faded out, they don’t have much bit and took a lot of peddle pressure. Get some dedicated track pads. I have a new set of Hawk HP+ (track pad) that I have used once on a short local track and noticed a huge difference. You can drive them on the street but they are noisy. I also notice that you have an ‘O4. An easy upgrade is to put the R56 calipers and rotors – I understand these were the JCW option on the earlier models; check the NAM threads on this as there is some great info in here. Carbotech pads seem to be the up and coming first option for the Minis – try AutoXcooper. I have a set of those (XP10 front/XP8 rear) for when the Hawks wear out. As for brake fluid, change it before each event. Its cheaper than wall damage. NAM also has a number of theads on changing brake pads. If you can change your tires you can change brake pads on your Mini. Here is a thread to start with (Gen 1 Mini – other threads are out there for the R56):https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...beginners.html

 

Eddie, it depends on your car--if you've modded it in the least, the stock brakes aren't going to do it on the track long term, regardless of the pads.

I've been down that road before--"all you need is better pads"--more marketing hype than reality, if you're really pushing it on the track. The R56 brakes are a step up--they're the old JCW's on the R53's--but mod your car, and you will run out of brakes.

On an unmodded S, you can probably get by with the JCW's, but the stock R53 brakes aren't going to cut it.

 

I figured out what my problem was... the caliper seized, which completely tore through the pad and then the rotor. The other pad still had some life left, definitely not enough for another track day but enough to finish the day, get the car home, and wait until I could get around to doing the brakes. Who ever changed the pads did a crappy job at lubing the caliper pins when they put everything back together :rolleyes

Does anyone have issue with brake noise or uneven wear from switching pads? I'm worried that it may effect the rotors.

I had a long conversation with a guy who extensively tracked his JCW R53 before moving on to an Elise which he now races quite successfully. He said that a big brake kit was just a waste of money- he didn't think the pay off was worth the cost. He just recommended that I get a good set of pads.

The car is currently 100% stock. Why can't the stock R53 brakes cut it at the track? What is their weakness? Is it cooling? Are they not large enough for the car?

 

CC - I track my Mimi with several other Mini owners and they run the stock brakes on both R53s and R56s. These are all advanced and expert drivers (one with over 20 days last year). At least one is running a stock R53 with stock pads (although he thinks he did cook the pads); the other is a R53 JCW with no complaints. To what CCT1 said, there may be some limitation with the stock R53 brakes (smaller rotor size). But there could also be some changes in driving style that would help with brake life. There are some great threads on that subject in NAM. Also, if you are doing HPDE, you might want to ask the instructor for guidance here.

However, with what you said about having a bad brake job and the caliper being seized up, I would hold judgement about the MC brakes not cutting it on the track. You need to get a good brake job done with at least the Mini OEM parts not some cheap aftermarket stuff and the fluid changed with a high grade fluid (the Mini spec fluid works here). If you want an improved brake, this would be a good time to go to the R56 fronts. These have a larger rotor and are easier to change the pad on. I don't know anyone who has used the stock Mini R56 pads on the track so I can't say how they hold up, but on the street I like them better than the R53s. Generally, none of my group has complained about rotors or pad problems (uneven wear or otherwise), but the race pads are noisy when driven on the street. As I said, I used the stock R56 brakes with the Hawk HPS pads on the track without issues. It's just that I want more bite from the pads. As for pad upgrades I understand that a lot of Mini drivers are going with the Carbotech pads. These are easier on the rotors but remember that is a relative term as tracking will eat any brakes really fast.

 

CC--Cooling is a MAJOR issue. Also seems to depend on what tires you run. If you run non r-comps, you MAY be able to get by, especially if you add brake ducts. If you're running runflats, you can get by with stock brakes, the tires will limit you more than the brakes.. Braking is only as good as your tires--so if you're running a stickier tire, such as R-comps, the brakes are the weak point. So if it's not out of reach, especially if you're on standard tires, you could try the carbotechs (which I love), add cooling, and see how it goes. The fact that the caliper siezed is not a good sign though.

Size is an interesting conundrum--you can go wider (my discs are 1.25 inch wide, 11.75 diameter, which allows me to run a 15 inch wheel--which has some very nice advantages on the track), or larger diameter, and .81 thickness (and go up to a larger diameter wheel, which I don't like. Some people admittedly do though). On stock JCW rotors, I was getting one track day before they showed stress cracks, that's it (The track I would fry them on, Blackhawk, is notoriously rough on brakes though). It ended up being cheaper in the long run to go to a better setup.

Driving style will help with brake life, but only to a certain degree, especially is you want to go deep into a corner.

Proper fluids are a must.

Stainless steel brake lines are a consideration, help with pedal feel. Won't make the brakes really "work" better though.

Eddie, virtually EVERYONE, including two instructors who drive MINIs--have had issues with stock brakes. The only person I know who hasn't isn't nearly as fast as the rest of us.

Be careful with "bite"--most people would trade better modulation for better bite. Grabby brakes are tough to modulate, and if you really want to kill a rotor, this will do it.

 

I echo what CCT and Eddie have said. I know no one except novices and intermediates 1 who can run the stock r53 brakes without burning them. I also know friends who have burned up stock R56 MCS brakes as well. Brakes are not the place to want to save money.

At the very least, get better race pads. But a bbk is better insurance.

 

OP, the R53 JCW brakes is not the same as your R53 MCS brakes. Therotors are bigger.

 

CC - Here's another thought for you - reduce your wheel weight and improve your braking. Here’s the geek-speak - Lighter wheels means less rotational inertia which means less horsepower is needed to change their speed which means that there is more HP available to either accelerated or decelerate the car. For brakes, that means that the brakes work less hard for the same braking distance. A few months ago Car and Driver did a great test on effect of the weight of wheels on the cars performance. A 3100 lb VW lost ~0.3 sec on 0 – 60 time with an 11 lb increase in wheel weight (44 lbs total). That works out to about 7 hp. Braking from 60 to 0 in about 110 ft should take about 2.5 sec about 3 times faster than the VWs 0 – 60 time. That means a 10 lb decrease in the weight of each wheel should be about 20 HP less that the front brakes have to dissipate (assuming the backs do little of the braking). My stock 16” wheels weigh about 23 lbs. Tirerack carries some nice OZ wheels that weigh about 14 lbs…think about it and you get good looks to with it.

 

CCT1 – I missed your post (#19). As for the JCW brakes, I understand that the cross-drilled rotors will do that (stress crack that is - lots of threads on that one) and I am going to be the next poor soul to check that out in a month from now as I have put a set of those on under the misconception that the drilled would be better. Most say that slotted rotors are a good option. If CC goes to the JCW/R56 calipers then he should have a wide selection of R56 rotors (larger than the stock R53s) to choose from, include the stock non-drill, non-slotted. As you said, it is the heat that kills; more rotor mass can absorb more heat. This should be a good option especially if he is going through a brake repair anyway. However, as you say, the conundrum is if you are going to spend $500 - $600 on a brake repair, should you just go ahead and spend the extra $400 - $500 for the BBK. It sounds like you have the AutoXcooper setup. If you do, then you know what Dustin says – BBKs are a matter of economics. If you are going through a set of rotors and pad every few track days then BBKs are worth it in the long run, plus better braking.

To clarify what I said about “stock” brakes, I should have said “with upgraded pads” – in most cases that means race pads (Carbotechs in most cases). Sorry for that miss…Everyone told me before my first track day – change the pads. And as for “bite” I agree, however my only point of reference is the stock pads, the Hawk HPS and the Hawk HP+. In comparison, for me, the HPS have no bite, not as good as stock and I really liked the HP+ and they seemed to have good modulation. Everyone likes the modulation on the Carbotechs; I’ll find out a month from now what they are like.

 

I'm not passing judgment on the brakes because of what happened. I would love to continue to run them with just upgraded fluid and pads (already done) and be done with the brakes. I don't want to spend over a grand on a BBK or $300 on cooling ducts if they will be more than I need.

Yes, I know the brakes aren't a place to cheap out on and if my set up doesn't work on my next track day I will look to upgrade them in some way. What I don't want to do is do everything right now then not know what fixed the problem in the future. I'd rather over heat the brakes again, improve xyz then see if that works, etc.

Right now I have Ate gold fluid, brembo blanks, and PBR metal masters in the front. Rears are still original, but still be replaced before the next track day with similar stuff. I wanted to go slotted, but because of the seized caliper I had to get what my local parts supplier had, and they didn't have slotted rotors readily available.

I think I'm going to make a home depo run and create my own cooling ducts as well. As for swapping out the pads before track days, I've surrendered myself to that option and I will do that if necessarily. But I am worried about it effecting the longevity of the rotor. Does anyone have any insight on this?

I'm currently running on the S-lights on a 215/45 Hankhook Venturas V12 tire. But that is going to change because I CAN'T run these tires again on the track. The tire only has an A temperature rating and I overheated them quite a bit on Thursday and took some mighty large chunks out of the tire. I'll have to find some sort of replacement before my next track day. I'm going to have an extensive conversation with my buddy/instructor who sat with me on Thursday to see if he would recommend r-comps at this point or if he'd suggest I just find a more heat resistant street tire.

As for the wheel, that is totally up in the air. I may get a nice street wheel and continue running the S-lights as a track wheel. Or I may pick up a light set of track wheels. Because I drive the car 90% on the street I think it is rather sad to have nicer track wheels than street wheels. But if I can find a great deal on a used set of Kosie K1s or similar, I'll snag them. I'm not sure what size I'd go with for the track? I'm thinking about looking for 16s for the weight and tire costs savings.

Thanks for all of your help

Lauren

 

Lauren - Hope the setup works well for you. Sounds a lot better than what you had. Let us know how it works for you. I am more of your mind set - one change at a time and see what works. As for tires, Tirerack has tested the Yokahoma AD08, Bridgestone RE11 and the comparable Dunlop and BFGoodrich (maybe the Hancook too). These are extreme summer performance tires which might be more of what you are looking for if you don't want to the R compound. But the price is up there and the wear is not so good. Check them out.