I did my first track day with MM2 yesterday. All is good in the power and handling department, however the one glaring aspect that needs work are the brakes. Currently, I have stock rotors, lines, fluid, and Ferodo 2500 pads. Amazingly, I experienced zero fade turning my track sessions, however the stopping distances are just too long. What I'm looking for is a setup that will decrease my stopping distances per the same speed. Of course, I do not want to increase unsprung or rotation mass and subsequently hamper the powertrain effectiveness.

Will slotted rotors, stainless lines, and better fluid help reduce stopping distances, or do I need to investigate among the several "big-brake" kits out there?

TIA,
Ryan :smile:

 

I mirror your thoughts exactly. I did the Phil Wick's Driving Academy last week @ Blackhawk farms track and I just couldn't stop fast enough. I also did not experience any fade. Funny thing was the next day while washing my car down I noted a "baked on spash" on the front rims. Could I have boiled over the stock brake fluid? If not what could that funny "spooge" be on my front rims? Unfortunately, I have notice a faint brake squeek when stopping since the event. Rotors look fine. Should I be concerned?

So many upgrades....so little money

click pic for better view :D
His, Chile RED over, Madness intake, Magnaflow exhaust, Helix 15% Pulley & RDR Swaybar
Hers, Electric Blue / Union Jack on top and BONE Stock

 

I ran Buttonwillow with the stock rotors and pads, came back with a set of cracked rotors on the front, and seriously worn pads on the rear. I'm sure having 30K miles at the time didn't help either.

I have since upgraded to PowerSlot Rotors and EBC greenstuff pads. Noticeable improvement over stock, but I haven't had the chance to test them on the track. I can tell you that during some 'spirited' canyon driving, they work very well and I have yet to experience any fade.

Not sure on the weight of the setup, but I'm fairly certain the rotors are lighter than the cast iron OEM units.

 

Following is a summary of the impact that I have observed of each of the components you mentioned in your post above:

Slotted Rotors - The slots help route the gases produced from hard braking away from the pad/rotor, which allows more of the pad to contact the rotor. An interesting approach has been taken by EBC - slot the pad... which probably gives the same benefit as slotted rotors.

Stainless Lines - Braided stainless lines help avoid sponginess in the OEM lines (if present; typically, brand new OEM lines do not exhibit sponginess, only after a few years). Personally, while I am a fan of braided stainless brake lines, it is as a means to avoid gradual deterioration in the brake response as the OEM lines age.

Better (higher DOT rating) Fluid - A higher rated brake fluid will help you run at higher temperatures and thus avoid deterioration in braking performance due to boil-over; however, I highly doubt that you will see improvement in braking distance from use of a higher DOT-rated fluid.

In my experience (with a C5 Corvette), the path to shorter stopping distance flows from either of the following: 1.) Change the compounds in the pads, or 2.) Change the brake torque of the brake system. With regard to 1.), EBC has a fairly extensive selection of brake pads for different applications. With regard to 2.), you are looking at a big brake kit. The only issue with a big brake kit (aside from cost) is wheel fitment. You are looking at a minimum of 17 inch wheels and there are only certain wheels that will clear a big brake kit. Tire Rack sells both wheels and Brembo big brake kits; if you buy both the big brake kit and the wheels from them, you can be assured of no problems with the fitment.

In terms of how to proceed, if money is not a constraint, then go with a big brake kit (which will come with braided stainless lines) and the larger wheels and tires. If money is an issue, I would start with the braided stainless lines, EBC pads, and higher DOT rated brake fluid. (Although, I believe that the MINI factory fill is rated at DOT 4, which if it is flushed every year, should not present any boil-over problems in all but all-out racing conditions.) If this initial step doesn't give you satisfaction, then you are looking at a big brake kit.

 

Great illustration caminfan, thanks!:smile:

 

Ryephile,

Here is your best solution if your going to be doing more track days throughout the year.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=27772

Talk to Todd at TCE one of the sites sponsors and he's been a sponsor over at Focaljet for a few years and our guys love his products.

With the new Willwood kit you'll have much better braking over stock and you won't have to upgrade wheels or run spacers. Also for $900 its a steal in the big brake upgrade market. Also you will notice a 100% improvement over any other stock rotor upgrade you can really do. As said above braking torque(better calipers) and swept area(bigger rotors) are your best solutions to better braking.

Personally unless your going to be running in any Grand Am enduro races soon any of the 13" kits are overkill and will probably slow you down due to much more rotational mass. Todd has yet to weigh it but the Willwood kit might actually weigh less than stock.

I'll definitely will be going to this kit in the future as i don't want to upgrade to 17in wheels.

 

Remember that ultimately it's the tire that stops the car. If the brakes are applying enough grip to lock the brakes (invoke the ABS) then they are doing all they can. That being said, bigger brakes will allow for better control, less fade and, perhaps, longer lasting components. If you are not experiencing fade I don't think they can shorten you stopping distances.
I initially upgraded to Ferodo DS 2500 pads all around, these helped but I still was getting quite a bit of fade at the track. I tend to be a late hard braker.
Next I installed the Stoptech's. With the stock pads that came with the ST's, Axxis Ultimates there was still a lot of fade, probably about the same as the Ferddo's. I'm now running Hawk Blue's on the front and the DS2500's on the rear. In most cases I can run without any fade. The on;y time I have experienced fade was on a hot day at the end of a 30 minute lapping session.

 

Thanks everyone so far with your help.

A bit of my driving style; Most tracks have braking markers, right? Well, I accellerate right through them until I pass the last one, and then [literally] STAND on the brakes. This pretty much defines "late braker"

--->ColoradoMark; quite strange that I get essentially no fade while you get tons of fade My stopping distances and pedal feel maintain throughout the track sessions, it's just the stopping distances I want to shorten.

You're onto something with the tires. I'm running 205/45-17 Parada2's, and it very well seems they are on the ragged edge of maximum deceleration. They also aren't as stable during braking as I prefer. Perhaps a [wider] symmetrical, directional tire would help? (besides an R-compound, of course)

 

Rye,
I think a lot of fade will be related to how hot the brakes get and how much time there is to cool them off. Second Creek Raceway in Denver is a short track with two long straights and not a lot of time for cooldown. It is notoriously hard on brakes.
I like you style - I hope you have adequate runoff areas when fade hits you hard :smile:

 

I want to follow this thread and keep my 16" wheels. Anyone running this new Wilwood kit. Please post feed back.

 

Ryephile,

After having had the MCS out for two sessions now I am of the opinion that the stock brakes are terrible on the track. I do not understand all of the people that say they are fine. They do not have the stopping power necessary for really diving into a corner in a spirited fashion time and time again. I did do some minor mods to the brakes as you can see below and ran ATE Blue. Did not get any fade, but the clamping power is just not there.

Had my mechanic take his MCS on the track for the first time (he races a highly modifiec e30 M3) and his opinion mirrored mine.

If you are going to do any track or drivers school events and have had experience doing these in the past with a well set up car, you are not going to be happy with the stock brakes(and this also means different rotors and pads of the stock size)

My measure of an appropriate braking system is simple: if you don't feel like you are going to go through the windshield when you brake, the brakes are not strong enough. Of course, there should be no fade, no broken parts during the session, etc.

I am in the process of exploring alternatives, which there are many of.

Bruce

 

I was watching an American Lemans race on TV and even the race cars have fade. The driver of a Porsche occassionaly pumped the pedal even when he didn't need to do any braking to build up pressure. Those guys can really move the pedals.

 

To the guys who report the stock brakes not offering enough clamping force, do you have your foot on the brake as hard as you can but the ABS is not engaging?

 

opposed piston calipers will give you better clamp force and will always experience less fade than fist-type calipers.
bigger rotors give you more thermal mass (this can be good and bad) the cooling coefficient of the rotors, surface area, plate thickness, fin number-shape-and size, all also come into play here.
SS lines-allow for greater line pressure

I have seen many independent studies that show that 'big-brake' kits do not really improve stopping distance; what they do is perform consistently at the same stopping distance and fade much less under the same conditions as stock calipers. One that comes to mind is a study done on a WRX; using a brembo kit, an AP kit, a Stop-Tech kit and the stock calipers.
I believe that all of the stopping distances were within 6-8 feet of each other on the first stop; but by stop ten in the AMS european brake certification test, the stock calipers faded quickly-all of the kits continued to perform with very little fade, and very little reduction in stopping distance.

To answer Ryephile's question: an opposed piston kit that is similar in size to the stock setup will outperform it every time, the better fluid will help with water saturation and fluid boil (and probably compresses slightly less than the stock DOT4), SS lines can aid in increased line pressure. slotted rotors increase surface area and cooling, but they also reduce the thermal mass of the rotor (drilled rotors are not a good choice because even with chamfered holes, the holes are perfect spots for stress risers to develop and cracks to start from)
Have you considered stickier tires? or smaller wheels (the dynamic rolling radius of your wheels and tires plays a HUGE factor in your stopping distances)
Hope I helped explaion a little- I could get really technnical, but would probably lose anyone who tried to read it later(including myself) braking equations and their development are complicated as heck-just a 'brief' over-view takes up over 100 8X11" pages. :smile:

 

Om smooth surfaces it was very difficult to get the ABS activating. I am not running R-compound tires yet, which will make a positive difference. In a bumpy corner, no problem, but, of course, the car can get squirrely. The pedal travel, I feel is a little too long... I don't have that issue with my BMW and don't expect it here. Yes...the brakes were properly bled..no difference in the travel between before and after.

 

There is some good info floating here.

I'll second the comments on stopping distance vs. durability if you will. The primairy intent of the BBK is not so much about overall stopping distance but rather that of doing it over and over without issue. Too that end, the 'brake enhancement' of pads, X brand rotors and SS hoses only goes to make stock parts the best they can be. For many this is ample. However the problems come when brand X pads generate more heat than stock and begin to tax the rotors thermal capacity. Then heat is put back into the pad, caliper and fluid. A good BBK will allow for more heat and better management of it. How? First more rotor mass. Be it either in width or in diameter. Also on rotor design which helps move air more effectively than stock rotors. Most builders opt for daim and width if there's room. The benefit of dia is of course that it requires less pressure from the caliper to generate the same basic torque. And the swept area increases thus taxing the rotor body less. The fit of alum calipers also make heat transfer to the fluid less given alum tends to shead heat better than cast iron which retains it.

All this and no shorter distances? The final say so is the tire as pointed out. You can put slicks on the car and stop shorter. But the down side is that now that you can stop shorter you'll also tax the brakes more and the temps go up again and faster. It's a constant cycle.

The value of any brand kit is worth considering if you are serious about the brakes and track days. I'd of course want you to at least consider my offerings from both a value and options standpoints while shopping around. I belive I offer more variation of options than most and a host of real performance pads that few others can match. There have been some on going changes to some of the kits and you can read them yourself in the Vendor section.

 

Todd,

Thanks for the clear comments.

Bruce

 

My personal experience:
The first thing I did when I got my MCS (and chafed through the break-in period) was to AutoX it. I thought the brakes were great. The first time I went on a run/rally/rallye/MINI meet however, I experienced some very serious fade on a few occasions, as did the other members of the run. The stock brakes just couldn't take the heat of the twisties, especially if they were downhill. This freaked me out when I thought about it the next day and I had just won some StopTech lines (I love you Zeckhausen Racing in New Jersey!) so I got some fluid and some Mintex Redbox pads and swapped them out with the stock set up.
*Bad Idea.*
If you're going to swap pads, swap rotors too. The surface of the pads and rotors will not match and you will have some serious screeching problems, even with the anti-squeel goop on the backs of the pads. Now I have to go back again and get it done correctly.
Like I said, just my experience.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, decreasing the rolling diameter is impactful as well. After spending a fair amount on Volk CE28N's (16x7), the only negative that I've confronted is the lack of braking upgrade options, as in kits. I decided to roll with a 205/45 tire (Yoko AVSES100) that decreases the rolling diameter about 5% (24.44 down to 23.3"). It made the car more torquey, and I'm quite certain she is "easier" to stop. Obviously the radically less mass and sticker tires help immensely, but the smaller diameter helps as well, I would think.

I don't track my MCS, but with canyon runs part of my commute, I know that I need to upgrade as the stopping power is not being maintained :(

What are the options for us guys who want to stay with 16's??? I saw the Wilwood kit mentioned on the vendor announcement (and above)...

 

This is all great stuff. My upgrade journey is as follows. After getting tired of the brake dust on my white wheels I went to EBC green pads on the front (rears weren't available yet). This worked so well that I added EBC greens to the rear when they became available. As I started to learn the car and drive more aggressively I warped the front rotors (excess heat?). Randy helped out with a set of used Powerslot rotors for a great price. On a very steep and twisty road I experienced the dreaded brake fade. Not fun! Now the front rotors are starting to pulsate under light braking. They must be warped a little bit. I ordered new brake fluid but haven't had a chance to change it out as of yet. I think I will wait till I decide on a better front brake kit to install and do it then. My two choices are the UUC kit or the Wilwood 12" kit mostly based on price and not needing to use spacers (I have 17" wheels). I hope to get to the track this summer so I need to make a decision soon. This thread is very timely for me.:smile:

 

My 2 cents:

The stock pads are not up to the task. Throw them away. I run the Ferado 2500's as well and am happy with them.

I am running the Webb stage 1 kit + stainless brake lines and it works well and has held up to lots of abuse with no problems.

A "big brake" set up that won't work with 16" wheels is pretty much a joke on this car as 15" and 16" wheels are the track and AutoX setup. Be very careful of the 16" sets as they work with some 16" wheels depending on the offset and design of the wheel. Additionally, they may require modifications to work properly with any wheel. Ask jlm. (:

I have found that the trick with these brakes is a realtively gentle initial application to prevent the ABS from kicking in. Once you are into the ABS the pedal gets real hard and you just have to wait until it trips out and your braking distances are longer. Try not to jam on the brakes and get initial lockup. Mairo A. when asked said this was the secret to his success.

Also, the stainless lines will raise the pedal as they don't swell which makes for tricky heel/toe work.

Brake earlier.....go faster!

 

I guess I come from the old school that says you can never have enough brake! Both of those kits are on my list but without any reviews it is hard to make a decision. You can probably do either one and sleep easy

 

Oh yea, forgot, you MUST change the fluid as the stock stuff is NOT up to the task and can easily boil under track conditions especially if it has absorbed any water. If you are going to the track do the fluid and pads for your own safety!

 

A Big Brake kit was planned for the future, but hearing about the Wilwood and UUC kits have got me thinking otherwise. I am running 17" SSR Comps. wheels and I know spacers are required for a Big Brake kit such as Stoptech. What are the adverse effects of spacers? Thanks.

 

could change the scrub radius...could be a good or a bad thing. I don't know how the car is set-up. whether it's positive or negative, but I doubt it will change it enough to be much concern.
'scrub radius' = distance between the axial centerline of the tire and where the kingpin axis intersects the ground. best is 0, that way all upward forces are directed through the main load-bearing structure of the corner.