Hey All,

I'm looking to get new pads for my '02 R50, coming down to 4mm on front and 3mm on the back (so says the report from the dealer).

I put new Brembo Rotors on the front and OEM on the back along with OEM pads on the front and back around 1.5 years ago. The rotors look to be still in good condition ( I already had the OEM stuff, and the Brembo rotors were on sale). I was thinking of getting a little higher quality pads, but I wanted to ask the question below before I looked into anything further.


What my question is: if I go with different pads, should I replace the rotors as well?



I do plan on doing a few performance driving schools in the fall, but I mostly use my car for commuting and taking enjoyable rides on twisty, curvy, mountain roads.

 

They are probably telling the truth, but it's easy to double check.
The only reason I mention it is that over the years, I had been on the receiving end of multiple hilarious attempts by Honda and BMW dealers to sell me new brake pad+rotor service jobs (for you safety, no less!) at ~$1K each, when none were close to being required.

Not.
Unless you are bored, and have money burning a hole in your pocket.

Many of go through multiple brake pads on the same set of rotors because:
1). Rotors last loner the pads
2). We change pads to suit target application environment: street vs. autoX vs. track/DE.

You do need to bed-in the pads to the rotors (new or used), so follow the usual pad brake-in procedures.

a

 

You shouldn't have a problem provided they are the pads designed for the brake system you speak of.

Depending on whether we are talking OE Brembo rotors, and stock pads, you should be fine as long as you are using OE Pads. Remember quality if subjective when it comes to pads. If you find a softer (read:quieter pad) there is probably less metal in it and will wear faster and shed brake dust faster. Harder pads will wear longer and contribute less dust but they will typically be noisier.

As your choices go, I'd say both driving schools and twisty curvy mountain roads will both be rough on your brake system. If you plan on doing this every day, you might consider a full brake upgrade front and rear including Motorsports Calipers and brakelines. A la, http://new.minimania.com/part/G2NMB2...i-Cooper-And-S

 

A quality set of rotors can easily be machined pretty simply for not much money. My mechanic was going to do that with my OEM Mini rotors but I warned him that they were not worthy. He took a quick look and agreed that the were gone.

 

I consistently went two sets of pads to a set of rotors on my MINIs, and do that for the folks I do brake work for.

Along the way I've changed from OE pads to EBC Green on a set of OE rotors

and a EBC Green to EBC Red on OE rotors . . .

if your rotors show no 'unusual' ridges you should be fine

popular opinion over the years is to NOT machine OE rotors ... rumor was MINI said don't but I've never seen that confirmed. In the beginning (I was an original buy 02 owner) MINI replaced rotors with the pads under maintenance plan ... no skim, no reuse. Later they changed to replacing rotor based on thickness but IME still never resurfaced them.

Bottom line is to measure the rotors and consider the minimum thickness

for a GEN1 that number is 20.4 mm front, 8.4 mm rear (numbers are cast into OE rotors)


wrt 'do not skim' one wants to consider the thickness loss when the rotor is re-surfaced vs the cost of a new rotor. True, in years past machining rotors was common .... less so today where toss and replace is more common and rotors are cheap and easy to change. On another car I had a place try to resurface a set of rotors and they finally gave up and gave me new ones. No one had the skill to run the machine right!

IMO there is no definitive RIGHT answer ... this is my experience and observation . . .

 

I haven't had too many problems with the Mini Dealer I take my car to. These past couple weeks they did mis-quote me in getting my steering pump hoses replaced ($2k for 3 hoses) because they were leaking. I was going to do it my self, so I asked for an itemized parts list so I can order them, and the price to actually do it was around $750. I could probably manage changing the pads myself though. Save a few hundred bucks and get better than OEM pads too.

The rotors are new, quick glance, they don't have any ridges or pits. They look to be in great condition. I can get pictures of them later I think.

The rotors I have on right now are these in the front:
http://www.waymotorworks.com/brembo-...0-r53-r52.html
and these in the back (along with those pads):
http://www.waymotorworks.com/mini-oe...0-r52-r53.html

I don't plan on riding the mountain roads daily, I do it maybe once a week (depending on traffic), but I usually get stuck behind someone going 20 (in a 45) the entire way. So, I don't think heat is too much of a worry as of any time soon. (And when it does, I'll look into the big brake set, new brake lines, and better brake fluid)

So, I think the consensus is that I can keep my rotors, just need to get new pads. I'm going to start looking for higher quality than OEM, but I don't need track performance. So middle of the road ones I think would be fine.

 

EBC Red is my recommendation

I used EBC Green for some time and they are WAY less dust than OE with good stopping properties IMO. Then I tried RED and IMO less dust yet ... not zero but VERY manageable, while still a decent street pad that takes occasional abuse.

Also, if I may say, WAY's current recommended pad for this application.

************
I could probably manage changing the pads myself though.

Disk pads are usually very easy ... there is a great DIY kicking around for a GEN1. OR, find someone to help you first time out. If you have the right tools, and place to work .... this takes around 15 minutes a wheel working slow . . . and adding a rotor change is not much added time.

 

Todays rotors (OEM at least) are basically "disposable". They are made thinner than "old school" rotors for weight & cost. Turn them once and they can be just thin enough that they can't dissipate heat as fast under hard braking.

FYI - "Turning" refers to smoothing the surface to remove the warp, or pulsing, you feel when you hit the brakes.

Most people I know who have their rotors turned (again talking OEM) find the pads wear a little quicker after turning. You can turn rotors once, but next time get new ones.

Turning them is cheap, local auto chain charges $12 each. I lean toward replacing pads & rotors together, but again that refers to OEM, plus I do it myself. (I have to admit I rarely own a car long enough to replace the pads a second time. Though my MINI may change that. )

That said, I'm always looking for a reason to upgrade anyway. If I'm already spending on replacements then I'll spend a little more and get better performing parts.

Ok, back on topic, I've heard from a couple more mechanically inclined people than myself that pads "bed" to the rotor, BUT that works both ways. The pads and rotors bed together. So if you get new pads for existing rotors, the rotors should be "prepared" for the pads. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to turn them, but I never did get an explanation of what "prepared" means. ??

I'd be interested to hear someone else's knowledgeable thoughts on this.

 

wouldn't a thinner rotor dissipate heat faster?

less mass . . . .

sorry I had too many years of physics and thermodynamics in my schooling . . .

and yes, it appears you have no idea what 'bedding' means

 

Worn out thinner = heats up much faster, and not enough mass to dissipate the heat evenly and more prone to warping. If you don't
have some radical edging going on and enough meat on the rotor makes it a judgment call.

 

From just looking at and running my finger across the rotors, there is a very small lip on the outside. I would say... around 1mm on the front and half that on the back. They barely look used at all. The dust on the other hand... If I don't clean my wheels weekly, they turn quite gray after the first couple weeks, and then black maybe a month later. Less would be quite nice.


Still, they are OE rotors in the back, should I use the EBC Reds (they are ceramic, right?) on OE rotors? People seem to have the opinion of "nope" to ceramic on OE rotors...

 

I guess this issue depends on where you live and what the road conditions are. Here is the worst rear rotor that came off my car at 30,000 miles after 3 winters. The pads still had 5mm thickness so they weren't quite dead - but nearly, so I didn't fight to get the discs paid for by Mini.



My location and driving do provide almost perfect conditions for discs to deteriorate with lots of road salting in winter and my car is often left parked all weekend - some of those clunks when driving off on a Monday morning were obviously bits of disc coming off!

 

lip is gonna form as the pads don't hang over the edge

 

If you're on a really tight budget, and there's tons of meat left on the rotors, and the friction surface is relatively smooth, you can do just pads. It will take a longer time to bed, and your risk of glazing the pads with poor bedding procedures is higher.

My mantra when it comes to cars is: don't mess with brakes or steering. Everything else is free reign. I always spend the buxx on parts of the car that effect those vital safety functions. If you have the means, spring for new rotors as well.

 

Budget isn't much of a concern. Since I already had the rotors, I thought I'd use them until they are used up. I'm still a complete noob when it comes to cars, so I'd like to take the advice of people who know more than me. (Compared to computers, which I know much, much better).

The area I live in barely rains, mostly sun shine the whole year. Doesn't snow at all. The environment doesn't really affect it. It does get hot in the summer, but I'm out on business trips not driving too much.

Here are some crappy close shots of my rotors through my wheel:
Rear right:

Front Right:

 

I can't tell the depth of your ridge but the surface seems average

If this was a first change on MY car (first change on these rotors) .... I'd "pad slap"

************

BED the pads .....

did you BED the pads on your new car?

No? Did this happen at the factory?

hmmmmmm .....

for street use 'bed' means drive carefully for the first few hundred miles.

If heading out to the auto-cross track on new pads ... find a place to BED them FAST.

to wit

EBC pads have a special 'bed' coating and recommend easy use of the brakes for a time after application. Same thing the owner's manual says about your new car . . .

 

That's perfectly normal.
All rotors provide slightly larger surface area than pads can use, thus the untouched area is not wearing off, leaving a ridge behind.
New pads should be the same size and shape as old, regardless of brand, and will fit into the worn-in area just fine.

There are FAR too many subjective opinions on what brake pads are best, only second to engine oil preferences

Many pads are low dusting, not just those that claim to be ceramic.
Do your own homework on which ones are best for you.

For what it's worth, my winter/street pads are StopTech Street Performance (source from tireRack), and they are both quiet and low dusting. The last bit was a bit of a surprise.

The vendors below may be of help (in no particular order):
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/resul...at+Tire+option
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...BRKPAD_pg1.htm
http://detroittuned.com/
http://www.waymotorworks.com/

a

 

Well basically my understanding of "bedding" is gently wearing off any higher spots on the pad so that the full face of the pad meets the rotor. This also should eliminate forming any glazed spots (a result of too much heat too quickly focused on those high spots). Glaze is not good at stopping, so reduces the stopping surface of the pad.


Another thought - check the manufacturer site (and model pad) for break-in procedure. Most typically say something like drive moderately or gently for the first so many miles. But my last pads (previous car) were Hawk Performance. They have a special "break-in coating" on the pad which requires about a 10 minute break-in process followed by walking away to let them cool down. Once that's done, drive as you normally do.


One more thought, good idea to replace the hardware when you replace the pads. That's the little metal "holders" that the pads slide back and forth in (which also requires brake lube). And double check the hardware isn't bent or mis-formed that would affect the pad sliding back & forth.

 

You're both wrong and right at the same time
Here is good article that is commonly referenced by StopTech http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...-system-bed-in
Basically bedding in pads means transferring a layer of pad material onto the rotors. When you're braking there are two forces slowing the car down. One is the obvious physical friction of brake pad on rotor. The other is the pad attempting to bond to the pad material stuck to the rotor. Bonds are created and then pulled apart causing additional stopping power. I may not have explained it very well but some internet searching will get you plenty of information.

EDIT: The breaking of bonds explains why race pads need more heat to work properly. At lower temperatures the bonds aren't forming and you're just using the mechanical friction aspect of the braking.

 

so I ask again

did you BED the brakes of your NEW car?

Or did you assume the factory did this?

Or did you follow the instructions in the owner's manual?

===============

try as I might

people don't seem to grasp the fact that

brake easy for 200 miles

achieves the same thing as

BRAKE HARD 10 TIMES IN 20 MINUTES

an autocrosser who pad slaps between runs needs "5 stabs" to run thru the new coatings.

a daily driver does not

 

Ah, that's right! (thanks for that article)
This brings me back to the earlier comment/question I had. If you are putting new pads on "old" rotors, do you need to "prepare" the rotors for the new pad material transfer? Do the new pads use the old pad material? Or do new pads scrape off the old pad material before laying down their own material?

Does any of this make a difference if the new pads are same brand/model as old pads, or if replacing with a different brand/model pad?

 

I assume the factory does not bed the pads and I always check the owners manual. I believe the manuals of my various cars have always said "easy the first 200+ miles".

 

Depends. Lots of times if you are staying with the same brand the pad materials are compatible. If switching brands it wouldn't be a bad idea to lightly hand sand the rotor with some sand paper to knock off some of the old pad material. I've not ever had problems switching pads but I know it can happen.

Sent from my phone using NAMotoring

 

Wow... I have no idea what I got myself into...

I just braked lightly and gave myself plenty of brake room when I first put the OEM pair on. The people on the highways around me didn't like it, but I'd rather not be the one to rearend someone.

When I find some pads, I'll look into what the manufacturer recommends. I'll be visiting 7ent soon, and I'll get their recommendation as well. I don't think I'll be going with the track style, I don't think I would get to use their full potential.

Thanks for all of the input (even if I don't understand some of it)

 

I thought it's best to take off the old rotors, and carry them in your underwear for a few hours each, before reinstalling and mating to the new pads?

Either that, or just slap on the new brake pads without undue excitement.

Your choice.

a