Warning on Jacking your car
#27
Originally Posted by rlfletch
Obviously, if the jack had a hard metal contact to lock to it would have been pulled through any "binding." Can Mini do no wrong here? Speaking as an automotive and industrial designer I feel I can speak with some authority that this is a bad design. Why are the plastic parts there? What's the advantage given the possible liability?
#28
Originally Posted by fred3
I thought those jacking points were strictly for the jack that came with the car.
#29
Originally Posted by markbradford
The advantage is that they can be replaced rather easily at little expense as opposed to a deformed floorpan. I thought you said you were an automotive designer...?
I've used the plastic lift points tons of times with no issue. Proper jack and/or jackstand placement and use is paramount.
I've used the plastic lift points tons of times with no issue. Proper jack and/or jackstand placement and use is paramount.
Inspecting the Plastic pad revealed that the locking pin is not fully pushed in and the two tension clips had thier flanges sheared off. Yes, the jack was on asphault and was not rolling on a perfectly smooth surface. Could that have contributed? Sure, but I never had a problem previuosly with my other cars. I guess I'll leave the jacking of my car to professionals like kaelaria.
I'm so glad I tried to point out a potential problem to fellow Mini users. Little did I know that some of you already know everything.
#30
Originally Posted by rlfletch
I'm so glad I tried to point out a potential problem to fellow Mini users. Little did I know that some of you already know everything.
#31
The E36 is worse than the MINI. At least with the MINI they give you an idea of where to put a floor jack. Under the E36, there are vague indentations, but nothing obvious. The on-board jack mounts to a slot in the side of the body work. A couple of companies now sell adapters that fit into this slot to allow lifting with a floor jack (I have one). Even then, getting that car on stands was tricky. The MINI is easy by comparison.
The VW Mk IV is another non-user friendly car with regards to jacking. The factory jack cradles the seem between the rocker panel and the floor pan. Again, the aftermarket is selling a urethane adapter to cradle the seem when using a floor jack (I have one of these as well).
Why did they put the plastic spacers? Probably to clear the side body work. Additionally, a solid mount might hang low and could be a catch-hazard. Better to rip off the sacrificial plastic blocks, than do structural damage to the body. And the plastic spacers are fine for the vertical loads from a service lift - which is what they are intended for. I doubt DIY service was part of the design criteria.
I do agree repeated side-loading could be an issue and something I will pay attention to when lifting the MINI again. Some day I'll have a lift.
The VW Mk IV is another non-user friendly car with regards to jacking. The factory jack cradles the seem between the rocker panel and the floor pan. Again, the aftermarket is selling a urethane adapter to cradle the seem when using a floor jack (I have one of these as well).
Why did they put the plastic spacers? Probably to clear the side body work. Additionally, a solid mount might hang low and could be a catch-hazard. Better to rip off the sacrificial plastic blocks, than do structural damage to the body. And the plastic spacers are fine for the vertical loads from a service lift - which is what they are intended for. I doubt DIY service was part of the design criteria.
I do agree repeated side-loading could be an issue and something I will pay attention to when lifting the MINI again. Some day I'll have a lift.
#32
Originally Posted by rlfletch
WTF is wrong with you knowitalls? Try reading the posts before responding. I'll type real slow for you: A notched or recessed area in the frame flange indicating where to place a jack is what I have encountered on every other car I've owned. This provides a HARD contact between the jack and vehicle that won't allow a jack to pull out to the side. Not one person has been able to describe a usefull advantage to having these plastic pads.
Using a standard jack on the pinch welds can bend/collapse/separate the welds. Factory jacks have a recess which conforms to the pinch weld so the force is not directly on the edge of the pinched portion. Using the joke of a factory jack in any more than emergency situations is not recommended. Mini has conveniently provided jack points which are 1. appropriately placed and 2. replaceable in the event of damage/deterioration, and 3. suitable for use with regular floor jacks.
Last edited by dave; 10-04-2005 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Site Rule #2
#33
Rest assured that for every response you've had on this thread, there are probably 10-20 people who have read what you posted and tucked it away in the "Whoa - I'll have to remember THAT!" category. __________________
BTW, I am one of the above people that read this post and said to myself "Whoa - I'll have to remember THAT!". My 2006 MCS is on order so I cant look at the jacking points on my car yet, but it doesnt make a lot of sense to me that they would be plastic. Also, as well as you, ALL my other cars have had a jack point hole built into the frame and not on a plastic thingy. I for one appreciate this post VERY much.
BTW, I am one of the above people that read this post and said to myself "Whoa - I'll have to remember THAT!". My 2006 MCS is on order so I cant look at the jacking points on my car yet, but it doesnt make a lot of sense to me that they would be plastic. Also, as well as you, ALL my other cars have had a jack point hole built into the frame and not on a plastic thingy. I for one appreciate this post VERY much.
#35
Originally Posted by markbradford
Mini has conveniently provided jack points which are replaceable in the event of damage/deterioration.
If Mini only intended these points to be used by a lift or the POS factory jack then that is a BAD design. No one at MINI has ever used a floor jack? Please.
It's one thing to have a part that might break off, it's another to have a part that might break off and DROP YOUR CAR. I think one would rather chance the tiny risk of bending their pinch welds as I risked on my MkIV GTI. Never bent them and certainly never dropped the car.
#36
To reiterate something I've stated now a number of times, the stock plastic jack points are fine for use with a proper floor jack only when used correctly. The jack should be free to roll - that's why it has wheels.
#37
Originally Posted by markbradford
To reiterate something I've stated now a number of times, the stock plastic jack points are fine for use with a proper floor jack only when used correctly. The jack should be free to roll - that's why it has wheels.
It's a friction issue. What will give out first when faced with some friction: The plastic jack point or a metal flange?
#38
Originally Posted by rlfletch
WTF is wrong with you knowitalls? Try reading the posts before responding.....
....I'm so glad I tried to point out a potential problem to fellow Mini users. Little did I know that some of you already know everything.
....I'm so glad I tried to point out a potential problem to fellow Mini users. Little did I know that some of you already know everything.
Just ignore the folks who are trying to boost their egos at your expense on this thread. As someone else said, I bet their are 10-20 people who will be much more carefull in the future now that they've read this. I sure was after I saw that old thread from 2002 about the car that slid off.
#39
Originally Posted by SCA
Of course, jacking this car is a lot trickier than your average car. If it is not done correctly it can definitely be dangerous. I am very careful when I jack mine.
Just ignore the folks who are trying to boost their egos at your expense on this thread. As someone else said, I bet their are 10-20 people who will be much more carefull in the future now that they've read this. I sure was after I saw that old thread from 2002 about the car that slid off.
Just ignore the folks who are trying to boost their egos at your expense on this thread. As someone else said, I bet their are 10-20 people who will be much more carefull in the future now that they've read this. I sure was after I saw that old thread from 2002 about the car that slid off.
#40
Originally Posted by rlfletch
Oh, I see, your right. I'll be sure to bring a smooth concrete pad anywhere I need to jack my car.
It's a friction issue. What will give out first when faced with some friction: The plastic jack point or a metal flange?
It's a friction issue. What will give out first when faced with some friction: The plastic jack point or a metal flange?
Real simple...the car is designed to be jacked a specific way. Deviating from that way is unsafe and irresponsible. Don't blame anyone but the user for a fault.
If the car was lifted properly (which it was NOT) there would be no issue, period.
If you can't operate your floor jack in the correct manner, use the Mini jack, that's what it's there for. If you need more lift, and don't have the proper equipment or space - take it to a REAL MECHANIC who does. Don't whine and blame others, then post sarcastic remarks about not having the right equipment, like it should have been designed to work with whatever you have.
#41
rfletch,
I've had a Mustang come down nearly cutting my arms off when I used a bottle jack some 20 years ago. The frame rails were covered with undercoating, which were hiding the rust damage. The bottle jack went right through, creating a perfect hole in the steel!
Thanks for the tip.
I've had a Mustang come down nearly cutting my arms off when I used a bottle jack some 20 years ago. The frame rails were covered with undercoating, which were hiding the rust damage. The bottle jack went right through, creating a perfect hole in the steel!
Thanks for the tip.
#42
Originally Posted by rlfletch
Oh, I see, your right. I'll be sure to bring a smooth concrete pad anywhere I need to jack my car.
It's a friction issue. What will give out first when faced with some friction: The plastic jack point or a metal flange?
It's a friction issue. What will give out first when faced with some friction: The plastic jack point or a metal flange?
I've seen the same kind of USER ERROR posts on every car board I'm a member of, no matter what brand or whether they have metal, plastic, or unobtanium jack points. Kaelaria is right - if you're using a My First Craftsman jack, perhaps you ought to stick to jacking up your Big Wheel.
Make no mistake about it - this thread is valuable. It is valuable because those who know what they're doing have weighed in, not because a know-not has blamed Mini for his wrenching skill shortcomings. If you don't have experience working with cars, PLEASE be careful and follow certain protocols (ALWAYS use a jack stand when working under the car, ALWAYS jack on level ground and allow the jack to move freely under the car's weight, etc) or leave the work to a professional.
#43
I guess the only thing that got JACKED UP improperly was the DEALER!
Quote:
WTF is wrong with you knowitalls? Try reading the posts before responding. I'll type real slow for you:
Looks like this subject has been covered fully. I truly was concerned about you jacking you car up (and now possibly killing somebody). But what got my attention was the liability part and your not understanding what went wrong. We keep hammering on you because it is important.
PS: I DO type really slow. This took a lot of effort but your worth it!
EDIT: In the time it took me to type this the guy above me poste a pic of a BIG Wheel and said it better than I could have!!! Glad to add the dealer remark though. I do feel sorry for him.
Quote:
WTF is wrong with you knowitalls? Try reading the posts before responding. I'll type real slow for you:
Looks like this subject has been covered fully. I truly was concerned about you jacking you car up (and now possibly killing somebody). But what got my attention was the liability part and your not understanding what went wrong. We keep hammering on you because it is important.
PS: I DO type really slow. This took a lot of effort but your worth it!
EDIT: In the time it took me to type this the guy above me poste a pic of a BIG Wheel and said it better than I could have!!! Glad to add the dealer remark though. I do feel sorry for him.
#44
Originally Posted by kaelaria
Oh, you're right...it's Mini's fault that you are trying to be a mechanic and not use the tools properly. It's not YOUR FAULT that you are improperly jacking the car. Got it.
Real simple...the car is designed to be jacked a specific way. Deviating from that way is unsafe and irresponsible. Don't blame anyone but the user for a fault.
If the car was lifted properly (which it was NOT) there would be no issue, period.
If you can't operate your floor jack in the correct manner, use the Mini jack, that's what it's there for. If you need more lift, and don't have the proper equipment or space - take it to a REAL MECHANIC who does. Don't whine and blame others, then post sarcastic remarks about not having the right equipment, like it should have been designed to work with whatever you have.
Real simple...the car is designed to be jacked a specific way. Deviating from that way is unsafe and irresponsible. Don't blame anyone but the user for a fault.
If the car was lifted properly (which it was NOT) there would be no issue, period.
If you can't operate your floor jack in the correct manner, use the Mini jack, that's what it's there for. If you need more lift, and don't have the proper equipment or space - take it to a REAL MECHANIC who does. Don't whine and blame others, then post sarcastic remarks about not having the right equipment, like it should have been designed to work with whatever you have.
I guess you have NEVER used a floor jack on anything but an optimal surface? Other than the guy with rust not one of you has addressed comments to the advantages or disadvantages of these plastic blocks. I guess it's easier to pass judgement on my perceived incompetence. Either add to the debate with some helpfull insight or go back to you perfectly smooth garages and oil your jacks.
Jacka$$es like you guys really add to the boards. You can have this sandbox, the cat will be along to bury the turds shortly.
#45
Originally Posted by rlfletch
Other than the guy with rust not one of you has addressed comments to the advantages or disadvantages of these plastic blocks.
Originally Posted by IanF
"Why did they put the plastic spacers? Probably to clear the side body work. Additionally, a solid mount might hang low and could be a catch-hazard. Better to rip off the sacrificial plastic blocks than do structural damage to the body. And the plastic spacers are fine for the vertical loads from a service lift - which is what they are intended for. I doubt DIY service was part of the design criteria."
I'm no a "know-it-all" by any stretch. I've learned a lot over the years about cars and why they are screwed together in certain ways, but there's a lot more that I don't know - otherwise I would have never bothered reading every post of this thread. I've been jacking up the MCS for over 2 years now and have never had a problem with the blocks. But yes, I've been lucky enough to always be working on the car under optimal conditions of a nice, smooth concrete floor. Even then, I've had a couple of scares. And I WILL pay more attention to the blocks after this thread. However, I'm not going to blame MINI or the designers. They are under huge pressure to reduce cost and weight and the lift blocks are just one result of that.
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