Hi guys,

Brake pad review Part 1.

I have the Wilwood Plus 1 kit from Todd at TCE Performance with the upgraded 12.2 inch rotors. Todd originally sent me the BP10 pads for the street and the B compound for the track.

With the stock brakes, I used the Hawk HPS pads on the street and I liked the way the felt. The BP10 pads did not seem to have the same initial bite of the stock brakes with the Hawk HPS pads.

At the track, I found the B pad had way too much stopping power for a momentum car. In my mind, the MCS (even with the JCW package) should carry speed through the corner. I felt like I was going to go through the windshield when I first swapped them in!!!

I talked to Todd about it and we agreed that I was really looking for a best of both world pads - something that is streetable, but can work on the track. So Todd suggested that I try the new BP20.

The first test is the street. The BP20s are just as quiet as the BP10, but with more stopping power - better than the Hawk HPS. They feel great. The next test will be the track - Watkins Glen, but that is a week or so away... so stay tuned.

 

I also have just tried the BP 10. I did not like the Q pads, they wore funny and imparted an elusive pulsation during braking. The BP 10s did not seem to have much bite around town. It was almost like I had the stock brake setup back on the car. I then tried them for a track day where I was in the process of fine tuning the suspension. I did 6 runs of about 20 minutes each with plenty of time in between. They did not have much grip to them and my stopping distances were much greater than I am used too. They were completely worn out after this time, but no rotor wear.

Last year I ran A's and E's on the track. Forget about the A's if you want to keep your rotors very long. But stop they did!!!! If you want to go deep into the corner, these are the pads! E's were the next best thing, good initial bite, a little longer stopping distance, but very controllable and comfortable to use on the track. Unfortunately I left them on for daily driving in cold Chicago weather and the rotors didn't like that.

I have now switched back to E's for around town and autocross. In the warmer weather they don't seem to be harsh on the rotors. In two weeks, I am going to try B's on the track, supposedly not as harsh on the rotors as the A's. I can report back on the B's at that time.

So for now, I'm going to remain with the E's for summer and autocross, try the BP10s in the winter. It will either be the B's or E's for track. And I will try the new BP20's, yet this year and see how they fit into the mix.

BTW, I started using Hawk HP+ on the rear, instead of Ferodo 2500's. I have now been through a track session(above) and 2 autocrosses. I prefer them to the 2500's.

Perhaps Todd will chime in

 

I just ordered the EB20's from Todd and a new set of non-slotted rotors. I'm looking for a pad that will clean the rotors better than the EB10. I believe the nasty vibration I've been feeling is from material transfer which I've had in the past from all basically street oriented pads.

There is a huge - by rotor standards - chip in one of the rotors, hence the new ones. No slots this time around.

I too found the EB10 to feel like stock pads on the street. But the combo at the track was quite different. I'm sure the EB20s will be a better compromise; better on the track and a so so in commuting traffic...I'm sorry officer, I drive this fast because my brakes don't really work at slow speeds...

I'll be at the Glen in 5 weeks.

 

BP, not EB, but none the less your descriptions are pretty accurate. Look at the torque curves of the BP10 vs the E (and A but that's a different world) and you'll see the 10s are rather uninspiring and while flat and consistant they don't offer the bite of the E pad. On the other hand the E pad ramps up more and sooner to a higher Cf for improved bite. But it tapers off and falls back down to the 10 level or so when hot.

(note to others; the tq charts are on the TCE page under Products/Brake pads)

The BP20 pad starts out with lower cold bite than even the 10, however at about 500* it takes off and continues to climb. To about a plateau of .55 for some time upwards of 1000*F. Like you I'm hoping the 20s will be a bit more 'mid level track' duty than any of the other pads yet available. The trade off will be dust and perhaps some wear similar to E.

They are out there, I am waiting to hear!

 

Todd,

I don't see the chart for the BP20 on your site or on Wilwoods. Did I just miss it?

 

I am on track next week at Watkins Glen, so stay tuned for the track report.

Vince

 

You didn't miss it, it's not there. You have to visualize for now...that's why I posted the data!

 

I've ran Q pads on my wilwood kit.... and they were just like stock... wasn't awe inspiring, that said, ive never tried them on the track

i just swapped to BP10s for the last weekend HPDE, and they were pretty good... then again, i was at a mild high speed track with little heavy braking... if i was at a technical track i think they would've faded alot sooner... on the streets, they stop better than the Q.... not as good as the DS2500s before... but still good

I ran A pads yesterday at my HPDE.. and for the love of god... they really are the ultimate stopping pad... i didnt find their top capability as my sessions were 30 minutes each... but they stop me quickily... i can brake later, and harder without worry.... at one point, they scuff so much speed i was going in too slow!

i hope to get the B pads when my A pads go... the A pads are dreadful when at mid pedal travel.... it sounds genuinely metal on metal

 

EB, BP, I'm dyslexic...really. Not that thsi applies here...

Todd, a quick technical question. When fastening the hats to the rotors, is there a torque pattern that should be observed? (If I remember the torque spec is 150 inch pounds) I simply began with opposites and worked my way around the hat. And, the clips that reside above and below each pad, can these be lightly lubricated on both sides with a synthetic type lube designed for this purpose? both sides- caliper side and brake pad side.

 

Same here, I just installed a used set of the factory 12.2" kit and wasn't blown away by the braking. I talked to Todd and ordered a set of the BP-20 pads. I will be doing a track day on the 23rd and will post feedback on performance after.

When talking to Todd, he said to make sure you bleed the calipers with all 4 bleeders.

Silly me, I only noticed the inside bleed screws! I just ordered more fluid so I can do a proper job. Braking is quite good even though the outer pistons weren't bled properly so I am encourged about the end result.

 

Torquing the hats should be done in a common cross pattern. I don't think it matters that you get too tech with it but certainly a basic pattern is well advised.

Note on the bleed all four comment: yes you'll need to bleed four bleeder nipples- two per caliper. NOT the ones on the bottom of the DP caliper (which are the top when flipped over of course). TOP bleeders only. Silly rabbit.

 

Yes, I'm glad you clarified - two top bleeders per caliper, a total of four. correct? Leave the bottom bleeders alone...air rises.

And, any comment regarding lubing the clips and pads from my last post Todd?

 

I cannot see any benefit in this lubing idea. If you try it keep the grease off the rotor is all I can offer up.

 

Todd, how do the BP20 compare with the E pads

 

I already covered this above.

The chart will be updated within a few days as the web guy has time to work on it for me.

 

I just re-bled the front calipers using both the inside and outside upper bleed screws. MUCH better pedal feel than before. I saw several small air bubbles so it definitely needed to be bled.

I can't wait for the better pads to show up!

 

Life is good now

 

Did you really go through a set of BP-10s in only 6 20min run sessions? Maybe I'm naive, but I find that a bit hard to believe. Or perhaps you're twincharged or something. Anyway, I've heard a fair amount of anecdotal feedback that only better front pads and better brake fluid are really *required* for avoiding fade. Even with that setup I believe folks are getting much better results in terms of longevity than 6 20min sessions.

I have a 11.75" Wilwood kit on order with the BP-10 front pads, so now I'm wondering if the BP-10s are the right choice for the mix of street driving and 5-6 track events a year that I have planned. Anyone else care to comment?

 

Todd, thanks for aggregating the charts at your site... do you have a curve for the stock pads as a basis for comparison? If not, perhaps you could offer a description, including average CF and at what temp the stock pads are cooked.

The BP-10s and the Es seem quite close in terms of performance. Would you expect to see fade with either of these pads (assuming a front BBK, DOT5 fluid, and proper bleeding) on the average 200hp track car during the average 20 minute run session on the average 85-90 degree summer day?

With the lower cold bite, the BP-20s would probably not be a great street pad, right? Has anyone driven these yet?

 

Your thoughts on the BP20s are pretty much what I expect of them. Not a street pad. The BP10s are more street and light duty track use.

Neither of these are 'hard core' open track pads guys. They are track 'worthy' perhaps in that they will hold up reasonably well but not give you the outright performance of a dedicated track pad.

Six 20min sessions on one set seems more than reasonable to me. That's 2hrs of use on a pad that is not a real huge pad to start with. The FSL calipers on the 13" kits offer pads that are much larger and fatter for this very reason. But on a smaller caliper and put through it's paces going through a set of pads a weekend and a set of rotors every few is simply part of doing buiness.

 

Also remember that different tracks work brakes to different amounts. I can run 20 minute session at Lime Rock with no problems. At another track I run at, which is usually a go-kart track, my brakes will barely last for 5 minutes before fading.

 

Ok. Thanks, Todd.

 

I sure hope we get some feedback from m332is soon, we've managed 22 posts on a part that's not in service yet! LOL

 

Todd

i think the BP10s are truly a light duty street pad... i thrashed them hard during a high performance driving education course.... and wears out quicker than i thought... and it was on a fast course...

whereas i placed the A pads on the car the next day, the pad didnt go as quickily, remember i was driving faster and faster as the day progressed... but still the brakes kept up with my driving.... rotor damage i am not too sure... yet.... but who cares... they stop time after time! also, seems to wear better on the track than the BP10s on my car right now

that said, the A pads on the street is DREADFUL!! it sounds so genuinely metal on metal..... i pulled off the track and headed to the gas station, everyone was giving me 'the look'

 

Todd,

I had the BP10s with slotted rotors - 12.2 directional kit. I just ordered the BP20 with non-slotted rotors. I drive about 3,000 - 4,000 miles a month for work. Are these pads okay for this duty? The BP10s worked fine at the track when warm, but felt very much like the stock brakes in stop and go traffic.

I do not necessarily care about pads and rotors that will wear faster. However, I am absolutely hyper about vibrational problems that come from material transfer or from over heated slots; the edges of the slots do protude above the surface of the rotor and this along with possible material transfer, make the steering wheel shake like crazy.

Perhaps I should install and remove these Wilwwods before each event - not a joke, but a reasonable answer until this car becomes a track only car. A real big PITA!