Now that is funny and it you reminded me of something that is long over due.
Trippy how are you comiing along with your free ignition mod? As it has been about 5 weeks now you must have it pretty well dialed in . Care to show us the numbers ?

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=ignition+mod

You said back on MAY 27 that it would be 2 weeks or so. I guess you went heavy on the "SO" part As the moderator at the time stated you are being watched.

' Trippy assures me this is on the up and up. Given his well established reputation for holding people honest to their claims, I trust that is indeed the case.

For any doubters, why don't you take the opportunity to hold Trippy to the same standards anyone else offering a product is held to. "

Inquiring minds want to know

Randy
team M7

www.m7tuning.com

 

The interest seems to have dried up.

Did I mess your letter?

I did get one with a SA, but not a SE which I tossed out, but it wasn't California, so I don't think it was you.


I do want to point out that I think the lower-temperature thermostat will work to keep the temperature of the coolant lower when the car is operating normally and driving down the road.

That should help keep lots of components from the battery to the ECU cooler and I think that's a good thing.

 

To make sure there are no air pockets,there is ,at least on the "S", a bleed screw mounted midway on the hose between the grille and intake manifold. Air pockets are an issue with newer cars because the radiator is lower than the cylinder head and sometimes hoses. If you don't get out all the air it finds its way to the water pump,which stops pumping and burns up its seal due to no lubrication. Not to mention your car overheats.
( if any one has access to a Mini shop manual please show recomended procedure ) Not having a manual nor having done this procedure on my Mini, I would first top off the expansion tank(leaving cap off).then partially unscrew bleed screw. Start engine,let the water circulate some,cap off coolant tank,see if the bleeder on the hose spits and gurgles mostly air or flows,squirts without air. If its the latter,close bleeder, and top off expansion tank. Drive the car(I'd say watch the gage,useless analog idiot light),return ,let cool and recheck. mikemike

 

Just looked at it on my i-Mac -- no problem.

Earl

 

I, for one, agree with Randy here -- I think Trippy owes us all some info on his ignition mod as promised. If for nothing else than to prove that he can really deliver something besides constantly attacking the info from M7 just because they're from M7.

Not trying to be a "netcop" here, but it's starting to get a little old.

 

I sent out all the information I have in the SASEs I received.

Send in another one and I'll reply.

When M7 refused to post the detailed specifications of their vacuum-line restrictor, they set the tone for NAM not me.

 

So let me get this " tone " situation straight. We spend our time and energy developing, manufacturing and testing something and then offer it for FREE to the Mini community in return for a name and address for our own private mailing list which may or may not ever be used and that's not enough for some of you. I would think that companies offering FREE items to the community is a " tone " that many others might want to see encouraged not picked apart. If i understand you correctly you are now demanding that If a company offers an item from this point on they should publish all specifications of said item ? Tell you exactly how it is built so you can go make them yourselves. At that rate everything for the mini will be DIY as there would be no more aftermarket left. I will be sure to check your posts requiring such info from the other vendors . Have a great day

Randy
Team M7

www.m7tuning.com

 

Come on Max, let's not go over it all AGAIN. It really is old-news and damages the MINI commmunity.

You want to know about the ignition mod, send in your SASE.

I want a vacuum-line restrictor, I'll send in my SASE.

Fair is fair right?

 

I think the point to be made here is that even though M7 asked for the SASE to deliver the "device", many folks who have received that device have come back here to talk about it (good and bad) and generally validate that M7 delivered on their promises.

In the case of your ignition mod, I can't recall a single report of anyone ever actually receiving info from you, let alone installing and testing your mod. It makes me want to think that the mod doesn't really exist, and that you're just trying to stir up trouble. I think there are quite a few here that might agree with me.

 

Thje ignition mod was a theoretical improvement, but as I said in my original description, I saw no difference in performance.

Could THAT honest assessment have been the reason no one was interested?

This is M7s thermostat thread.

PM me if you want to discuss it more.

 

Here is am MCS showing coolant temp VS ignition timing during a warmup cycle:

You can clearly see that the engine computer is reducing the total range of ignition timing while the car is warming up.

Right around the 180-degree coolant temperature is where the timing gets to it's "fully-warmed up" range.

I don't know why running a reduced range of ignition timing would make the car run better. I don't have an MCS to test it out on.

TonyB is going to install one and send me more data and I'll certainly post it.

 

Not sure what you mean by "fully-warmed up" range. In my years of experience, a car is not fully warrmed up until the thermostat is open and the coolant is circulating. Since the stock thermostat does not open at 180 degrees, that would not be considered fully warmed up

 

What I mean by "fully-warmed up" range" is the range of timing values I see in the data after the car reaches it's normal operating temperature just as you described it.

If you look at the range of ignition advance values after the car is warmed up, you see they range from -16.5 degrees to 38 degrees.

I see the timing advance readings just begin to hit +38 right near where the car's coolant temperature is getting warmer than 180 degrees-F

That's why I think the cooler thermostat will allow the car to get acceptable performance.

I would predict that running a 150 degree-F thermostat to take an extreme example would keep the car too cool, and the ignition timing would be reduced, therefore redicing the performance of the car.

BUT BUT BUT, I can;t tell from this information that the coolant temperature is the thing that causes the timing to be less aggressive. It could just as likely be a simple clock that causes it to be less aggressive for 2 or 3 minutes after a cold-start. Who knows?

That's why we gather data and post results in these forums.

TonyB will install the cooler thermostat and we will see how the ignition timing changes.

M7 could gather this data themselves if they wanted by investing $79.95 in a Elmscan-ISO scanner

 

Interesting points and with our resident expert on vacation I will do my best to relay his past thoughts on some of them and guess a bit on the others. I will run these by him for a more definitive response next week.

"Cooler Sometimes is Less efficient at burning = More HC Pollution (This is the reason that T-Stats are in the 195 Range for almost every car on earth = emissions!)"

This is the way the owner of a local smog station where we test the cars explains it.The last thing car companies want is one of their brand new cars to flunk a smog test. A hotter running car shows " Cleaner " on a smog test. That is a number one way many questionable cars get thru as they just run them hot as hell and many pass. To make sure all their cars pass the manufacturer run them all hotter than necessary (195) to make sure that the " dirty " ones get thru as well.
We took the car with the 180 t installed and had no problem passing the required numbers but it was showing " dirtier " than with the 195 t. Still legal by CA standards to be sure.

"Within normal running conditions, with higher temperatures the Cylinder Walls expand more than the piston expands. The higher the temperature the less friction. Especially with modern oils. "

I might have to see the " numbers " on this theory before I but it. Cylinder walls with water running thru them ( water jackets ) expanding more than pistons enclosed within steel walls and explosions ( spark plugs ) going off. I know that the higher octane gas helps cool the pistons somewhat but not as much as , in our case , 180 Degree water in the passageways. As for modern oils I would think that the synthetic 5/30 blend would work even better at lower temps as the number one reason for oil to break down is temperature. The higher it is the faster it breaks down. We are of the opinion that the lower operating temperature of the car will actually make the oil last longer and function better.

Again I am just repeating what I have heard from our consultant on this project and as he is away for a week I really can't get the real scoop for you at this time. Nice post though and great questions.

Randy
Team M7
www.m7tuning.com

 

aluminum pistons will expand more than the steel cylinder walls because:

1. the co-efficient of expansion for alumiunum is about triple that of steel;
2. the pistons will be much hotter that either a 185 or 195 'statted engine block.

a better "con" would be that the piston/wall clearance is set based on normal operating temps, where the piston will expand more than the bore and fit just right. if the water/cylinder bore temps go lower, presumably the bore will expand less and the piston gap will reduce. However, I seriously doubt a 10 or even 50 degree differential would be significant.

 

Do you happen to have the test data? Here are the results from my car last November:

CO % x liters
Limit = 1.10
Test value = 0.00
PASS

HC ppm x liters
Limit = 275
Test value = 8
PASS

NO ppm x liters
Limit = 3600
Test value = 28
PASS

RPM Reading = 2578
Dilution Reading = 15.4%

 

Thanks for posting those numbers Andy.

It's great to see the data from a properly running MINI.

It will be interesting to see the lower-temperature data and I hope it is only slightly "dirtier" than the stock temperature engine.

Since the lower-temperature testing has already been done, and you get a printed report, we just need to wait for someone to type it in when they have a spare minute or so.

 

I sent you a SASE some weeks ago for one of your "devices" and as yet I have not rec'd it. Are you still honoring your offer?

Thanks,

Scott Farm

 

FYI, I did some logging during the warmup cycle, and saw the same "tightened" ignition range during warmup as well. Mine didn't completely normalize until about 195F.

 

Federal law makes it illegal for ANYONE to tamper with, disconnect, remove or otherwise render inoperative ANY emissions-related control device. Revisions to the Clean Air Act in 1990 further broadened the definition of emissions tampering to include virtually ANY type of engine or exhaust system modification that alters what comes out the tailpipe. That means any nonstock aftermarket part that is installed on your engine must be EPA-approved and emissions legal (except on the exempt vehicles previously noted).

 

A picture is worth 1000 words:

 

OBDII systems utilize something called "driving cycles" which I believe can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Here is an example of GM's cold start as it pertains to driving cycles:

• Cold Start. In order to be classified as a cold start the engine coolant temperature must be below 50°C (122°F) and within 6°C (11°F) of the ambient air temperature at startup. Do not leave the key on prior to the cold start or the heated oxygen sensor diagnostic may not run.

 

Andy's data confirms the idea that using a colder thermostat MIGHT cause you to restrict the normal range of timing advance values which MIGHT reduce engine performance.

Andy: Are YOU willing to install a 180-degree thermostat and compare your car's advance values when running a colder engine?

Or how about someone at M7 investing the $79.95 for a scantool?
I would be willing to help them get it configured and capturing data for graphs.

 

PM trippy and randy on the whole "m7 device" and "trippy ignition mod".
we're talking about testing the m7 thermometer, not dead horses.


EDIT: errr. there WAS a post from an unregistered guy, but it went away. so ignore this.

 

[QUOTE=Pablo]If you really want to watch your temperatures, use the odometer readout trick - You can watch a real-time digital display of the temp. in Centigrade.

• With ignition off, press and hold the odometer reset button while turning the ignition key to the first position, then release.
• Display will show "_ _ 1.0_ tESt_"
• Press/release 3 times (I think)
• Display will show "_ 19.0_ tESt_"
• Wait 5 seconds or so and display will start to alternate readings -
• "_ 19.0_ L_oFF" to "_ 19.0_ L_oN_"
• Press/release when display is "_ 19.0_ L_oFF" (meaning it's turning the full menu lockout off which will display more items)
• Display will instantly return to "_ _ 1.0_ tESt_"
• Press/release until you see "_ _ 7.0_ tESt_"
• Wait 5 seconds or so and display will shift to display engine temperature in Centigrade. Interesting note, here, if your MINI has been sitting for a while, the initial display will be the temperature when you last turned the ignition off - mine was 101 from the previous day. When you start the engine, the display will show the current temperature.
• The display will show "_ _ 7.0_ _ _###" (# being a number)
• Press/release again and you'll get 7.1 which is ambient temperature
• Susequent presses will show RPM (7.2) and Instant Speed in Kilometers/hour (7.3) then cycle back to 7.0

This is friggin' great - I had not seen this procedure before. thanks for posting this:smile: .